Jim Dwyer from Business Council of Mongolia Talks Mining and the Economy

This 2014, 27-minute radio interview with Jim Dwyer, the founder and former Executive Director of the Business Council of Mongolia (BCM) touches on how BCM came about. He also shares what he thinks needs to be done with regards to exporting and that Mongolia’s economy is dependent upon the success of Rio Tinto’s Oyu Tolgoi Mine. The interview was conducted by Ms Nomina, whom we have no affiliations with.


Featured Image: Oyu Tolgoi Mine, Public Domain

Mongolia is Regaining its Momentum

Strategically located between Russia and China, Mongolia provides rare opportunities for savvy business leaders and investors to start new businesses and expand existing ones.  In recent years, Mongolia has suffered economic hardship, as can be seen from the stark drop in GDP growth over the past few years.

Mongolia GDP growth

As a consequence, the country has embraced economic evolution.  Political and business leaders have been forced to seek ways to fuel the economy, not only from mining which was the backbone of Mongolia’s economy for many years, but also from other sectors such as agriculture, renewable energy and tourism.  At the same time, a global wave of technology and entrepreneurship have impacted the way Mongolians think and do business, spurring bold initiatives and a reaching out to the international community.

We explore three trends that show why now is the perfect time to invest and to do business in Mongolia.


According to the World Bank, while livestock provides subsistence, income, and wealth for nearly half of Mongolia’s population, only 7 percent of exports consist of raw livestock materials and primary processed products.  This is in stark contrast with statistics for the mining sector, which only employs 5% of the workforce but has produced nearly 90% of Mongolia’s exports since 2000.

This imbalance has spurred the Mongolian government to initiate policies and programs that support export-oriented, non-mining sector enterprises in Mongolia.  For example, in the government’s “Policy Paper on Sustainable Development 2030”, a goal of increasing the percentage of secondary and final processed products in total exports from 4 to 15 percent by 2020 is emphasized.

InfographicHowever, small and medium sized enterprises, which make up more than 80 percent of registered businesses in Mongolia, lack the knowledge, skills, capital and networks to develop and distribute products that can compete in international markets.  Therefore, foreign talent, expertise, capital and connections are well sought after in the country, particularly in fields relying on the environment and ecosystem.

In order to decrease the economic vulnerability and meet the needs of the majority of Mongoliansociety who are dependent on non-mining sectors, Mongolian governments have been obliged to diversify Mongolia’s economy.  In doing so, in addition to export-oriented support policies and programs, Mongolian governments have introduced various programs and policies supporting import substitution.  In the last five years, the growth volume of imported products has been triple that of exported products, giving more justification for the latter programs and policies.

In addition to macro-economic motivations, a strong societal need for food security has led to the opening of a large variety of food factories.  Many of them have been formed in partnership with foreign companies and experts who have the sophisticated technical skills to complement their Mongolian partners’ local knowledge.  Despite Mongolia’s vast landmass and her people’s preference for locally produced food, the country still relies heavily on imported food which means that food production in Mongolia is still under-tapped, for example.

In this country of vast territory, patriotic people and thirst for advanced technologies and international connections, savvy investors and business people will discover many opportunities.  If you are keen to explore the country’s potential and form strategic partnerships, the most efficient and effective way to do it will be to join the Discover Mongolia Business Tour 2017  in August, 2017!


The unexpected results of the 2016 parliamentary election, with the Mongolian People’s Party (MPP) winning by a landslide 65 out of 76 seats, led to the MPP forming a one-party majority government which has been stable and effective.  However, in less than a year in office, the current government has been both heavily praised and criticized.

Foreign organizations and individuals, such as foreign investors, neighboring countries, and international organizations like the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have been supportive.  In May 2017, the IMF Board of Directors approved the government’s request for a three-year IMF Extended Facility Fund (EFF) of USD$440 million.  By reaching this agreement with the IMF, the Mongolian government has opened bigger credit lines from larger Asian economies like China, Japan and Korea, as well as from other international banks like Asian Development Bank (ADB) and World Bank.

According to the IMF, “The total external financing package will thus be around $5.5 billion and will support the authorities’ “Economic Stabilization Program,” which intends to restore economic stability and debt sustainability as well as to create the conditions for strong, sustainable, and inclusive growth”.

The need for the IMF program arose from the sharp deterioration of the government’s fiscal position and Mongolia’s macro-economic situation, most notably the depletion of the country’s foreign reserves, which situation arose mostly due to the downturn in commodity prices over the past several years and poor investment and fiscal policies and excessive borrowings by the previous government. The latest parliamentary election results were a reflection in part of society’s desire for a government with more fiscal discipline and policies to better encourage investment.  While there remains ongoing support within Mongolia for resource nationalism and a populist agenda, the results of the election suggest that continued economic liberalization, macro-economic stability and economic growth through increased foreign investment and continued integration with international markets are viewed as the stronger model for Mongolia’s future development.

Historically the MPP, formerly known as the Mongolian People’s Revolutionary Party, has built the most credibility and political stability during its time in government.  The below chart illustrates the number of days the Democratic Party appointed Prime Ministers led the cabinet, none of whom completed a full four year term.   In contrast, all the MPP Prime Ministers have completed the elected full four year terms over the past 25 yearswith only one exception. Additionally, the previous IMF bailout in 2009 was successful under the MPP government.


Therefore, it is expected that the IMF’s EFF implementation over the next three years has the best chance of success under the MPP, and that it will reinforce political stability and ease barriers to doing business in Mongolia for both locals and foreign investors and business people.

Mongolia is also set to benefit from China’s One Belt, One Road Initiative, which has six main economic corridors that will provide extra investment and partnership opportunities for foreign investors and entrepreneurs.  Mongolia is a part of the China-Mongolia-Russia Economic corridor, for which agreements have been made by various Mongolian governments as well as the current President.



According to a recent survey done in the United States, youths around the world have become more similar to their peers in other countries as compared to previous generations in their country of birth.  Becoming inherently entrepreneurial, global-minded, innovative and environmentally-aware and socially-sensitive are some of the trending, unconventional characteristics among Generation Y “millennials” and their later generations in Mongolia.  The number of young Mongolians working for international corporations at home and abroad, as well as starting and running businesses in international markets have increased dramatically over the past several years.  In addition, the success of Mongolian start-ups, like LendMn, in raising significant capital in overseas markets like Singapore, proves the capability and competitiveness of young Mongolians.

However, the independent and self-reliant nomadic mindset is still dominant among Mongolians.  Therefore, Mongolians are culturally different from Asians of other nationalities who tend to be more collectivist, and this difference creates both opportunities and risks.

In order to assist foreign investors and entrepreneurs interested in doing business in Mongolia the Discover Mongolia  Business Tour 2017 will educate participants on the common challenges and business risks in the country and offer solutions in mitigating such risks and leveraging the unique advantages of Mongolia, so that they can conquer markets at home, in China, in Russia, and in Asia.  The tour is jointly organized by some of the country’s leading institutions such as the National Development Agency of Mongolia – the Government Regulatory Agency, the Business Council of Mongolia and the Mongolian National Chamber of Commerce.

Written by: Enkhzul Orgodol, Co-founder, “Doing Business in Asia”

Edited by: David Wilks, Co-founder, “Doing Business in Asia”

2.Final design BusinessTour

Interview – Gandolgor Purevjav

Gandolgor Purevjav is the founder of the Ganabell Institute, one of Mongolia’s leading Human Resources consultancy firms and wrote “Ten Steps to Success”, a leadership targeted specifically at Mongolians.

In this interview, she talks about the high turnover for Mongolian companies and explains the necessity for HR planning to retain training investment. A few nuggets of wisdom include features of the archetypical Mongolian mindset and gaps in the Mongolian workforce that can be leveraged by savvy entrepreneurs and investors.

Interview Transcript

Enkhzul Orgodol: Miss Gandolgor is one of the most prominent HR advisors in the country. She found her own practice, Ganabell Institute, back in 2011 with her partners who are also specialized in strategic management and corporate training. Miss Gandolgor, welcome to the interview. I’m very glad to have you here. As I just briefly explained in the intro you started Ganabell Institute with your partners and your main focus is HR consultancy as well as strategic development, as I understood. Please tell the viewers a little more about your institute.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Sure. I studied Human Resource Management at the Michigan State University and got the HR certified advisor. Also I had over 10 years of experience in HR field. Ganabell Institute vision has two objective. The first one is to help local companies to become international key players by developing the human resources. The second one is to help the individuals to become successful not only in their career, but also in their life. We have the three fields to run our services. The first one is the consultant services in the strategic management, especially in human resource strategy. The second one is the customized and public services. The customized training program is designed based on the needs of the company. The public one is for the design for anyone who wants to improve their personal abilities in the productivity. The third area to cover in our services is to produce the product lines on human development books and notebooks and other activities.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see, I see. Okay. I’m very glad to have you here, partly because throughout this project we found that human resources is one of the top challenges of doing business in Mongolia, especially based on the interviews with our 11 other business leaders. I would like to ask you was being the human resources in one of the top challenges in Mongolia prompted you to pursue your career in this field? If so, how much improvement have you seen over the past decade since you got into this field?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Well, there was a lot of improvements going on. For instance, 10 years ago when I started this kind of business as a CEO, we’re trying to approach to the small and medium and even large companies, and trying to educate them how training is important to their employees. Then in the beginning they just reacted and say that, “Oh, the training is very costly. Giving the training to employees is very costly. Why do we have any benefit?” It is, “We don’t see any benefit. After we giving training, they probably just leave our companies. What’s the need?” So this kind of attitude was very prevalent during that time, but now that quite changed. Of course, in better way. They understood how it is important, human resource is a very good asset if you utilize, manage them well, how it can be liabilities if you can’t manage, if you can’t retain these employees. It’s all depend on the management level of the company.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, right. Those who manage their human resources good, well, must have sustained their business quite well, especially during this economic downturn over the past few years. Right?

Gandolgor Purevjav: I totally agree with you. During the past economic downsize time, the most of the companies they thought reducing their employees is the good option. But indeed, it’s not a matter of employees, it’s a matter of the management strategy. That’s why it’s depend on how you see it. If you see the human resource is the liability, then it is your right to reduce the number of employees, but if you think the human resources asset then you will never fire them. You instead, based on the human resources, you could able to find the new solution to sustain your competitiveness.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, right. Could you share us a bit about the human resources challenges that are found most commonly in Mongolia, maybe top three challenges you commonly see in Mongolian organizations or organizations in Mongolia?

Gandolgor Purevjav: In terms of company-wise, there are certain challenges they mostly challenges facing, no matter if you are big company, small company, if you are international company. Based on my experiences the most of the challenge, number one challenge the companies are facing in terms of HR is turnover. That the turnover is less than 50%. Some companies even 70%. So an average, about 50%. It’s considered very high number compared to other developing countries.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Could you elaborate a bit more on the turnover aspect? For example-

Gandolgor Purevjav: For instance if it’s 50% means that when you have the 10 employees and half of them would leave your company. Yeah. It’s like a flow. The employees come in and out. When turnover is very high it’s very, It’s a bad sign.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah.

Gandolgor Purevjav: That means the employee who work more in years, they’re productivity is getting higher time-to-time, year-to-year. Unfortunately once you give training, once you facilitate the training, and once that employee is get used with the job, then after two or three years they just leave the company. Maybe there are different reasons, but the turnover, if it’s high turnover it’s not good sign.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Not at all, and very costly for the companies.

Gandolgor Purevjav: It’s very costly, yeah. The second challenge I see that there are many very good companies who give the high salary job to the highly skilled people. Unfortunately the Mongolian market itself is very small, and in terms of population we have only three million people. The middle level working force is about over 500,000 people. That means Mongolian companies mostly on a lack of highly skilled employees. They are always seeking such employees. If they find it they have ability to pay the money. So this is the second challenge.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Could you share some of the exact professions that you are referring as highly skilled?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Sure. I can say the two levels. The first one is highly specialized technicians. Even though the Mongolian universities produce, give supply, a lot of highly specialized technicians, the Mongolian demand, labor demand cannot supply the work demand. Demand and supply of the labor has been imbalanced. That’s why the highly skilled technicians couldn’t find a job. They had to change the profession and major. Another side, the reason I’m saying that Mongolian companies are lacking of the highly skilled professions means very high executive like Chief Financial Officers, Chief Marketing Officers. These kind of jobs are still vacant because many of my clients keep asking me, “Please find a very good accountant, a very good Chief Financial Officers like Human Resource Advisors,” stuff like that. I’m talking about highly executive job and highly skilled technician. Both companies are lacking these kind of employees. Another side also Mongolian companies are lacking of low-skilled jobs, too.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, right. Yeah. Because everybody started going to universities to gain the diploma and the degrees, but there is need in the market where people with vocational training, for example, are in demand.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Yes. Yeah. That’s what I meant.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. I see. Okay. So two major problems you named under the-

Gandolgor Purevjav: The problem is it’s not matter of the employees, it’s a matter of the company’s strategy. Based on my experience, hundreds of Mongolian companies didn’t have any human resource strategy. What kind of people they want to hire, how to develop them, how to evaluate the performance fairly. Finally, they don’t have a strategy to retain the employees, who are giving the productivity.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. So if there is no clear strategy or clear picture for any newcomer or any employee in the system, then it kind of demotivates them to stay loyal to the company or even to plan their personal life in relation to their work life. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s why highly executive people and very professional people like to find the international companies. They want to be employed by the company who take care of these issues. When Mongolian companies could be able to find the good jobs, good employees, but they should have been prepared in strategies to keep them, to improve their productivity. That is the challenge, one of the three challenges Mongolian companies-

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Very insightful. Thank you very much. In terms of overcoming the challenges you just mentioned, high turnover, employee turnover as well as lack of highly skilled professionals, and thirdly unclear or the lack of clarity in their human resources strategy among the companies or the organizations in Mongolia, what are your top maybe three, four, two three solutions or strategies you provide to your clients or to anyone who are operating in Mongolia?

Gandolgor Purevjav: It all depends on the company culture and strategy and mindset of the owner. If the company founder who has a feeling, who loves his or her employees, then he would find out the solution to keep the employees. If the founder, in other hand, doesn’t love, understand employees, he only take cares of making money, then story would be so wrong.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, yeah.

Gandolgor Purevjav: When I give advices to the company owners I found out that they didn’t have any certain culture of the organization. Even some companies doesn’t have any value or vision. In that case, how can new employees come to the company, have ambition to work in the long run? When your employees come in they hesitate whether I going to work in the long-term or not. Nobody tell me that company has a vision, company has a capacity to grow. But in that case the new employee’s just trying to adjust a few months. Then if that employee doesn’t find any reason to stay longer then that employee say bye-bye.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah. That happens very commonly in Mongolia, doesn’t it? Yeah. A lot of employees go into new company, corporation, or even startup, and then they just stay there for a few months or even sometimes few weeks. Then they say, “You know, I don’t like how the company’s structured or how the company’s handled.” I see. I see. So that means there is unclarity in the company.

Gandolgor Purevjav: It’s no wonder that the young, energetic, executive people try to find the job at the foreign investment company. The reason is that the policy is very clear, how to develop, how to evaluate performance, how to increase the salary. Everything is very clear.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see, and as well as their medical and health benefits, etc. I see.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Because of that, foreign investment companies have a privilege to find the good executive, young, energetic professionals. In that case, if Mongolian companies want to attract such potentials they need to compete. Right? In order to compete they have money, they have land, they have equipment, office, but they don’t have a human resource strategy. That’s the problem. If the Mongolian companies who have the human resource issues, they need to pay attention what they are doing instead of criticizing the employees. The highly skilled, energetic, young professionals like to be employed by foreign investment companies. Reason is that these companies, their human resource strategies very clear.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Well, thank you for speaking of foreign investment companies because I was going to ask you about the difference you see in terms of human resources practice and management in Mongolian local and foreign invested companies, you know, foreign companies in Mongolia. Let’s say on one hand Mongolian professionals, or the skilled workers, is more attracted to international companies or foreign invested companies, mostly because of their more clear human resources strategies as well as the package they’re offering. But on the other hand, how about the employees, the foreign employees? Are they happy to employ Mongolians? Are they as happy to employ Mongolians as employing probably the nationalities from more developed countries or more experienced international professionals, based on your experience?

Gandolgor Purevjav: There is no way they wouldn’t be happy because they’re able to hire the highly energetic and capable professional people. That means they have good human resources, so they don’t have any discrimination between the foreign people and the Mongolian people. The rule and structure and everything is clear. Also the international companies do not discriminate against the races and against the age and even the sex. But in the Mongolian companies you will probably notice that in Mongolian companies you need to be a certain age, from 25 to 35. You need to be high. It’s very discriminative. It’s all depends on the company’s culture. When I work with the international companies, I mean, the foreign investment companies, they give certain, they face certain challenges when they work with Mongolian people. So I gave several lectures and seminars how to understand Mongolians, how to communicate the Mongolians effectively for different officials and foreign employers. There is a reason they argue with each other. The reason is very simple. Because the way they see the work is totally different.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Could you give some examples?

Gandolgor Purevjav: I’m talking about in majority, okay? Because there are certain Mongolian professionals who are very highly skilled in terms of soft and hard skills. I’m talking about in majority. The foreign employers need to understand the Mongolian people’s mentality. You know that Mongolian human resources has been developed in more than 25 years before we had the different system. Now the capitalist system has only 25 years. Right?

Gan Then the Mongolian people’s attitude to work quite different. The Mongolian people are very calm. They don’t hurry that much. They don’t plan in small items. They think as a whole. They think on the items as a whole. So once they need they can divide into small stuff. Otherwise they usually just see in general. Also the Mongolian people’s IQ is very high, but EQ is very low, very means they don’t have very time to improve to develop the emotional intelligence. Once Mongolian mentality has been understood by foreign employers, there wouldn’t be any argument, because they understand the mentality of Mongolian people. Then they find the solution, how to communicate with Mongolians.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. So it’s not individual specific but it’s more of national or something that you can see across the human resources or the workforce in Mongolia, you’re suggesting. I see. Could you share some of the examples of the EQ that Mongolian workforce commonly lack of?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. The EQ could be how to communicate with your employee tactfully. If you’ll say something that that person made a mistake, the Mongolian people just say, “You made that mistake.” There is direct communication, straight forward. But if you have emotion IQ, if you have a EQ high then you would find the way to soften it, to make that person understand the mistake. In that case that person who made the mistake realize and recognize that he made the mistake. Such kind of small communication gesture.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Do you provide communication or cultural advice to your foreign clients?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Yeah. Once they had some problems and didn’t find the solution they approach it to us, but we didn’t have such a training program. They had the needs and based on the needs I formulated the training program and give the training for them. Then after the training they were very thankful to me, because they said that for many years I didn’t understand Mongolians. Now I understand Mongolians. Now I find the solution how to work with Mongolians effectively and efficiently.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Could you share some of the insights of that effective training you provided for your foreign clients? Some of the insights, yeah.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Sure. For instance, there are one company, it was the European company. I don’t want to say the name of the company and the country. That European foreign investment company owner had a problem communicating with Mongolians. Then when we find the argument from both sides, because I talk to that foreign boss, foreign employer and the Mongolian employees What was the argument? Why they didn’t understand each other. Then they give the points. The points they say is right for them. But they don’t understand each other. The problem was that that company’s owner was very aristocratic personality. He got aristocratic personality. That means trying to underestimate the people. But the Mongolian people-

Gandolgor Purevjav: Yeah, looked down. But Mongolian people don’t like mud treatment. So Mongolian people high ambitious, ambitious goal, and they don’t want to be-

Enkhzul Orgodol: Seen as someone at the lower … I see, I see. That’s the mentality. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Actually, in one of my interviews with one of the business leaders, a European business leader actually, he said he kind of saw Mongolians as very entrepreneurial. He kind of saw Mongolians as very entrepreneurial and he said, “Maybe for every Mongolian they have a dream to have a business of their own.” I see.

Gandolgor Purevjav: The second argument they had was that the person, that employer was very punctual, very detail oriented. But the Mongolian people didn’t plan that well, so because of that working attitude, culture, made them misunderstood. I’d give the training to the Mongolian employees that we are a working environment and working style is totally different from them. European people, they are very focused. They are time punctual. Their EQ is high. Also they are detail oriented. After they plan small they could able to find there’s a big picture. But in a Mongolian aside, they see the items as a whole, but later on if necessary they plan it in small steps. Most of the time they don’t plan it in the small steps. They just think as a whole.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. There’s a goal here and we have to get there.

Gandolgor Purevjav: They are not high enough to think about how. This kind of misunderstanding occurred between foreign people and Mongolian people. Otherwise the foreign employers really value how intelligent Mongolian people are, and their IQ is very high. Also the are quick learner. They appreciate how quick Mongolian people learn.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly, and the language ability is very high.

Gandolgor Purevjav: They learn the foreign language very fast. Even though Mongolian human resources are limited in terms of quantity, but in terms of quality Mongolian human resources is very highly energetic and highly asset-driven.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. So it’s a matter of management at any organization to see the potentials, the real potentials of Mongolians, and having bearing in their minds the potential risks related to the difference in their cultures and difference in their communication styles, etc. Then how all these make difference in how successful and sustainable the business can be run. I see. Those are very valuable, very valuable insights and discussion. I think our intended target audience who we believe to be entrepreneurs and investors, mostly foreigners interested in doing business in Mongolia, have gained some insight related to Mongolian human resources, Mongolian workforce, or to Mongolians in general from your discussion. I would like to welcome your final comments and thoughts on whoever watching the show, the interview, and then thinking whether they should be coming into Mongolia to do business, and if so how they should leverage the potentials of the Mongolian workforce.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Those who want to open a company in Mongolia, you have a very big potential in Mongolian market because Mongolian market is emerging fast and a developing country. In terms of the human resources, if your company has very strong human resource strategy you can find the employees that you really want. These people can give you the value, and these people give you the new ideas. These people give you high productivity. So before you’re entering that, please make sure to develop your human resource strategy. Once you did that you don’t need to worry about different resources.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. By the way, finding a local partner, reliable and efficient local partner in Mongolia, was also named to be one of the top solutions or in the top tips for anyone entering the market as a newcomer. Would you agree with that? Would you also suggest finding a good partner in the country as one of the top solutions to addressing potential human resources challenges?

Gandolgor Purevjav: Yeah. Totally, I agree with you. If you find the local partner it would be much, much easier for the foreign companies to penetrate the market, to find the market share and improve the market share in certain period of time. So one of the good advice is to find a reliable local partner.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Maybe after, or even before you come into Mongolia, if you need any help with your human resources strategy or planning, go talk to Miss Gandolgor in Ganabell Institute. Okay. Thank you very much for your insightful discussion, and I hope it’s been useful for our viewers. Thank you.

Gandolgor Purevjav: Thank you.


The World Bank’s Doing Business in 2017 – Mongolia

The World Bank does a comparative annual survey of the business environment of different countries. Usually the comparative rankings are the parts of the reports that feature in the headlines. The rankings are made on the basis of 11 ratings;

  1. Starting a business
  2. Dealing with conustruction permits
  3. Getting electricity
  4. Registering property
  5. Getting credit
  6. Protecting minority investors
  7. Paying taxes
  8. Trading across borders
  9. Enforcing contracts
  10. Resolving insolvency
  11. Labor market regulation

Deep within the reports, real actionable information can be found. Each individual 11 ratings for each country has to be justified and this involves spelling out information such as the appropriate legislative acts, relevant operational procedures, the time it takes and the amount of money involved.

For example in Doing Business 2017 – Equal Opportunity for All – Mongolia, pages 49 to 51 details the 5-step , 12-day procedure to register a property in Mongolia along with fees for different property prices. This is followed by a general FAQ on pages 52-55, where the answers also inform the contribution to the World Bank’s ratings. If the rating is a 0, then it’s likely to be an issue in business planning.

There are 10 other areas like this with the details spelled out, in the report, and the research draws from a range of resources. This is a great tool for reducing research time, double-checking information from local partners and ensuring proper planning. It will be very useful for any investor and entrepreneur.




Interview -Robert Stearns

Robert Stearns is the Director of the International School of Ulaanbataar, the only school in Mongolia to offer IB education. Previously, he held principal roles at schools in Hong Kong and Germany.

In this interview, he discusses the ideology that drives the education in the school and how it affects the employment pipeline in Mongolia. He also talks about Mongolia’s prospects as an education hub and the underlying factors that inform his assessment,

Interview Transcript

Enkhzul Orgodol: Mr. Robert Stearns is the director of the International School of Ulaanbaatar, which is the only school offering international baccalaureate. Is it correct? Primary, middle years, and diploma programs in Mongolia and the school itself was founded in 1992, as you can see in the background. Mr. Robert Stearns, or Bob, has over 40 years experience in the education industry and has worked across different continents, including Europe, America, and Asia. Bob, thank you very much for accepting our invitation and welcome to the show.

Robert Stearns: I’m honored to be here and thank you, Zula for the invitation and thank you to discover Mongolia travel and to BCM for sponsoring this because for me, it gives us an opportunity to explain a little bit about the school and about something that’s really close to our hearts as educators and that is education in Mongolia.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. I’m very glad to have someone from the education sector, because education is really the foundation of, and the feeding foundation of the other sectors. As you said, this is where the human resources, this is where the future labor force, or the workforce are built. ISU is planning to double the capacity of the school, I found out. Was the decision demand driven or opportunity driven?

Robert Stearns: Let me just explain a little bit about the background of ISU and then I’ll talk about the demand versus the opportunity drivers. ISU is a school that was founded by the parents that came to Mongolia in 1992. They came with the embassies and the NGO’s and as the foreign investment companies came in, the United Nations and all of those children that were coming in didn’t have a place to go to study. They couldn’t speak Mongolian so they couldn’t go into the Mongolian system and so a school was started up and it was supported by the embassies and this school gradually grew with the help of the US Embassy in particular. The US government and the Mongolian government actually created a bilateral agreement for this school in particular so our school actually thrives under this bilateral agreement, which gives us a very special status here in Mongolia.

We’re a non profit school. Any revenue that we have at the end of any fiscal year is recycled back into the school. We strive only to have enough revenue left over, enough surplus at the end of the year for those rainy days that might come along and make sure that we’re prepared for those. I would say in the first instance that the decision to double the capacity of the school was seen as an opportunity as the economy was growing. 2009, 10, 11, if you remember back in those days, the economy was really hot, the hottest economy in Asia so the opportunity was there to, With more and more expats coming in to grow the school to a critical size of about 600, 650, 700 students, which from an educational point of view, makes for an opportune size for a student body.

With that number of students, you can have facilities built that are purpose driven, that allow the learning activities and the curriculum to diversify, that you don’t have when you have a smaller number of students. You can have a strong curriculum, you can have a strong educational program with a small number of students but you can’t have the opportunities that might serve the best needs of all of the students. Let’s suppose in the sciences, you can study your chemistry, physics, and biology but with a larger school, you can add on other sciences that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford to add on. We have facilities that are specialized such as a theater, which now allows students to learn about what it’s like in the backstage of the theater, the lights, the sounds. We have a pool so now our students can learn the skills of swimming, the things that they wouldn’t have the opportunity without the theater and the pool beforehand. That’s why the school planned to double. The opportunity came with the economy growing.

Demand driven in the sense that knowing that these foreign students were coming, then we needed to have a school that was gonna be ready to accept them. Of course, ASU was there and BSU started up a year or two later and so those schools also saw the opportunity and the demand but that was really, the demand for us was to make sure that as the students that we needed to serve, that they would have a place in the school.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Before asking the question, let me give you a brief explanation I heard from one of the current events. There were, I heard there was an even between education sector presenters as well as the employers, business community and I wouldn’t say if it was in Mongolia or elsewhere but they were saying the business community was complaining to the education sector that whoever they were preparing for them, basically the education sector are preparing the human force so the human resources for the business community were not meeting the expectations they were having in their jobs, in their work stations. Now, I think this discussion is getting even bigger worldwide, because we’re living in this era of technology and the technology is evolving so rapidly that is is hard, even for young people to keep you with the new forms of demand that the business community or the employers are seeking.

For example, with S-T-E-M, the STEM, the AI, the artificial intelligence and big data are only a few of the long list of the buzzwords shaping the future of global workforce. I would say particularly in the advanced economies at the moment but we will have spillover effect in the midterm or in the long term as well. You are an institution, international institution that are preparing international, the future of the global, the global citizens, yet you are based in a country, specifically Mongolia, that is lacking lots of infrastructure on development to keep up with the development of advanced economies. How are you tackling … Do you find it challenging to have the expectations of your, maybe, parents or your students to meet the expectations or what you can offer in this situation?

Robert Stearns: It’s an interesting question. I’m going back to the beginning of your question. I can recall back in the 80’s in Ontario, the business community, and this may have been throughout Canada but certainly where I was in Ontario, the business community had a big impact on the curricula that were offered, the learning skills that we were trying inculcate in the schools. We shifted, wrongly in my opinion, to educating students to be part of the economy, to be part of the business and of course, we have to be that. It’s out bread and butter. Don’t we? But if we go back to the roots of education, if we go back to what education is really all about, it’s to teach our young people to become critical thinkers, to become logical, to become analytical, to think for themselves. That’s what education is really all about. It’s not to train people in specific skills. It’s not to train people to go our and be good robots in the workforce, to sit in the cubicles and not question.

Enkhzul Orgodol: You’re saying soft skills are more important than hard skills when you’re training the young children.

Robert Stearns: The hard skills come later. The soft skills, at the levels that I’m dealing with in primary and secondary school, the soft skills are the inquiry skills, the critical thinking skills. Those are the important skills. Those are the lifelong skills.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see.

Robert Stearns: In that sense, if there’s a growing schism between the economy and what business people are saying versus what’s coming out of the educational sectors, that doesn’t make sense to me because I think more and more we’re finding the educational sectors around the world, in different countries are shifting to these soft skills. We don’t know what skills are gonna be needed 10 years from now, 15 years from now. Our children that are in primary grade, their jobs, their careers are probably not even created yet. We have to prepare students to be able to do anything, to be able to go into any area and apply and adapt. In terms of our school here in Mongolia, because it was a multifaceted question that you asked, I think we would not say there’s a mismatch between our school and the students that we’re teaching at the school.

First of all, our Mongolian, or sorry, our expat students, they are foreign students and they are going to go on into a foreign environment. Many of them are part of foreign families that do rotate from country to country and so it’s important for us to teach these students international mindedness and all the traits that come with being international so that they can not just cope but they can thrive as they go from country to country with their families. Quite likely, they will also be international when they, they won’t settle down in one country because it’s hard for them even to know what country to call home.

Our Mongolian students, we also would feel there’s a good match for them because as I mentioned, as I will mention in the interview later, Mongolia itself is becoming more international. It’s reaching out and therefore, it’s incumbent on us, with the students that come to us, students who we hope will aspire to be leaders in the country tomorrow, that they are internationally minded because that’s Mongolia’s aim. It doesn’t want to remain a landlocked, isolated country. It’s already reaching out in its foreign policy, in its partnerships with other countries, in its tourism, in other areas as well. There’s no mismatch there as well. I think students that come into this school are well setup if they’re Mongolian to be leaders in the Mongolian economy, to be very active participants in the Mongolian economy. For our foreign students, to be able to take what they’ve learned here and apply that elsewhere around the world.

Enkhzul Orgodol: When I was talking to the previous leaders, a lot of them, especially the foreigners were emphasizing cultural difference among their employees, local employees. One of them included their independence, their eagerness to be independent, as well as their eagerness to be leader in certain areas or I think behind that, those kinds of characteristics, competition or competitive mindset is there so I thought maybe that some area, Mongolia, those who are employed, those who are going to be employed, including the current secondary school students, if they could pick up this kind of collaborative mindset from their young age, then that might help them to be more internationally, not competitive but compete in the, I guess, workforce or human resources. Would you agree with that and is that what you’re visioning, maybe when you are stressing so much on the collaboration aspect?

Robert Stearns: The workforce today in general is dependent on people working together, synergistically.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right.

Robert Stearns: The students at a young age, at our school, begin to work in groups. They begin to work in teams. It doesn’t mean that they don’t work alone from time to time and it doesn’t mean that the teamwork is always smooth. It’s a learned behavior, how to accept the ideas of others, how to incorporate them and work together for the good of the whole team and how to drive a team when some people aren’t necessarily pulling their weight on the team or some people are going off on other tangents and all of that takes time and practice and it develops personal skills, interpersonal skills. Those carry on then through the higher grades and then into the workforce. When you go into the workforce, you’ll see that you have people are working together, they don’t work alone. They have cubicles, I suppose, in some areas that they tend to work all day in the cubicle but I think of my own children who are in their 40’s now and they work as parts of teams all the time so it’s a very important, there’s a sense of competition in that sometimes with the team itself and we don’t diminish that. In our science classes, for example, we’ll have science competitions and in our math classes, we’ll have math competitions so it’s not to drive the competition out but it’s to use the team to synergistically compete.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Do you see Mongolia having the potential of becoming, I don’t know, educational hub or educational center for the region at some point because a lot of people emphasize the Mongolians are blessed with language abilities, they can learn Chinese, they can learn Russian quite easily for example and these two countries are two of the major powers in the country, not only in terms of political but in many aspects. On the other hand, there’s cultural difference as we just discussed about. Mongolians are not too open to accept changes, welcoming foreigners, etc and also lagging behind many emerging markets in terms of many infrastructure developments, especially the road, having the public parks, etc. There is the aspiration to become some form of regional hub, whether it would be in the educational sector, it would be in the financial sector but the reality is pulling it back. What’s your personal opinion on that?

Robert Stearns: I think the first question comes to mind when I think about this educational hub for Mongolia is what would be the motivation to become an educational hub when you have other possibilities to focus on? I suppose one primary motivation would be to attract the best and the brightest to drive innovation and with innovation, then the economy can be driven as well so I suppose in one sense, in a landlocked country like Mongolia, in the geographical position that it is in, to become an educational hub to attract that innovation and that innovation can then drive a knowledge economy or a value added economy that gets away from the resource driven economy that now exists. I suppose another motivation to certainly improve the educational levels here, if not become a worldwide hub, is to retain your own bright young people and not allow that brain drain out of the country, to keep the people here. A couple of reasons you might want to consider Mongolia as an educational hub.

What’s holding it back? The infrastructure, yes, you mentioned that and I think, I’ve been here six years and in the six years I’ve been here, I’ve seen wonderful improvements in the infrastructure, the road systems and so on. It’s no longer just a city that’s out in the middle of nowhere. This is an urban environment that can hold its head up with any other modern urban environment in many ways but air quality, I think, is one of the most important infrastructural areas that needs to be tackled and we’ve seen more and more voice on that in the last, This year, especially and I think if you’re looking at attracting young students to come into Mongolia to stay, to stay afterwards, the air quality – You’ve got beautiful blue skies here and we’ve gotta see them more often.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Definitely.

Robert Stearns: I think infrastructure, to me, that’s the most important. Yes, water is scarce here so water quality also has to be maintained, improved, so that it doesn’t become a limiting factor. I think beyond the infrastructure, if you look at the institutional factors that would help build an educational hub, the school system needs to be drastically improved at the primary and the secondary level. The overcrowded classrooms, the multi phases per day because they feed into universities and colleges and institutions of training that are gonna be world class. If your own people can’t enter those, the educational hub is not going to be successful so it has to start at the ground up. I think if you look at the top level, because when you think of educational hub, you think of those universities, those colleges, those arts and sciences areas, the universities and the colleges here need to gain international accreditation.

So in the first instance, I think that has to be sought after very vigorously and I know at least one of the science universities here is seeking international accreditation. With that international accreditation, of course, that forces the standards to come up but it also brings that worldwide recognition so students who are considering, “Should I go and study in Mongolia? Will my degree be recognized?” Yes, it will be because it’s an accredited institution, internationally accredited. That’s what we boast about here. We’re internationally accredited so any student that graduates with an ISU diploma has got a diploma that is internationally recognized.

Enkhzul Orgodol: If these kinds of supply side problems are started out at least at a certain level, then I guess the demand side could be motivated more in addition to having the certification, etc, it’s much less costly here. Would you agree? For example, we have this American University of Mongolia in here, I’m not so sure about their accreditation yet because I haven’t looked into, but if there are for example young people from other Asian countries or central Asian countries, who are willing to gain degree in an American institution, instead of going to America, if they can come to Mongolia, it would be much cost efficient for them, wouldn’t it?

Robert Stearns: That’s right. If you’re looking at Central Asia or you’re looking at East Asia and in those areas it is very expensive to look at, or China, you look at Hong Kong, those areas, they’re expensive so if you can provide that at a much more efficient price level then yes, that would be a big attractor right there.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right.

Robert Stearns: I think one of the steps that Mongolia could, The American University of Mongolia, is a good start, but you could kickstart that process by inviting franchise campuses. The population is spread out across the country and from the student centers, students, when they graduate from the local schools move into regional schools and eventually perhaps to UB or to Erdenet or Darkhan or places like that and so those have to be built up as well. Also you have the satellite campuses over at Darkhan and Erdenet and Central Lake and places like that so that because this population is so spread out, the ease of getting to these has to be there.

Enkhzul Orgodol: As I mentioned to you before starting the interview, the intended target audience of this project is not only Mongolian really, I want it to be international, international investors and entrepreneurs who are looking at fresh opportunities in Mongolia. That’s why based on what you just said, is it correct to summarize that there are lots of opportunities of setting up educational institutions in Mongolia to meet the demands from the population who are so spread out but that had to be done with proper planning and that should not be done from the top but more systematically?

Robert Stearns: Yes, I agree. It has to be done right from the bottom, more systematically. Otherwise, it won’t be sustaining.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Wouldn’t you think the population,I guess the reason why I started talking about the educational hub or welcoming students from other countries, not only designing institutions for the local locals is that, the number of … The size of the market, because Mongolia is only 3 million people, the size of the market is just too small, I think, for any big investments. However, we do have other competitive advantages like having the big land mass and having very attractive, beautiful campus built not too far from Ulaanbaatar but still where international students, as well as the locals can gain world class or international education.

Robert Stearns: If that’s all you wanted is to have, because Mongolia as the exotic destination for students to come over and complete their tertiary eduction here and a well recognized university, college, an arts and science college,That can be setup but that doesn’t create an educational hub, that just creates an institution of opportunity. You look at what Korea did on Jeju Island, they’ve setup an educational hub on Jeju Island that starts right from the beginning, right from the lower grades, all the way through and that island itself, because of its UNESCO world heritage designation, its beauty, away from the hubbub of the Korean big cities, it’s banking on that to attract students and it’s got the franchise campuses over there already, even at the secondary level for example. Private, for profit schools in other countries have setup franchises on Jeju Island so that could be here, but they are attracting mostly Korean students with some international. If you want to setup a university here, like AUM that’s attracting international, then sure, but that’s not gonna build your educational hub.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Bob, it was really informative and educational interview for me. I think, of course you know, you’re from the education sector and you’re institution is not for profit, but I think it would be good to have these words heard in this kind of business context as well, because I’m talking of responsible business, sustainable business, any investors and entrepreneurs should be aware of the kind of human centric aspects you mentioned and I’m very grateful that I had you in my interview and I myself as a parent was educated a lot in many ways as well and I would like to wish you all the best in your next step. You said you were moving to

Robert Stearns: China.

Enkhzul Orgodol: China, yes. I hope that you will stay in touch with your old school, the current school, which will be old soon and to ensure the kind of messages you want to pursue is still there and maybe to our viewers, you can share your final thoughts and we can call off.

Robert Stearns: I wanted to say thank you to you, Zula for giving me the opportunity to explain about the school. We are a member of the BCM and I have had opportunity, a couple of times, to present to the BCM on specialized topics, but so that your viewers can understand there are schools here in UB, that are ready to accept the children of international families, of investing families that are coming to UB and it’s a growing sector here so thank you for the opportunity for us to explain what we do at this school. It was a good chance for us to talk a little bit about ISU.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. It’s a great pleasure. Thank you.


Interview – Daniel Mahoney

Daniel Mahoney is a founding partner of Mahoney Liotta, one of Mongolia’s most experienced law firms, dealing with a full range of corporate matters and government matters.

He speaks about the ever-present risks of Mongolian taxation and the underlying causes. There is an interesting aside about the composition foreign investors and how they have changed over time in response to the regulatory environment. This interview also provides a glimpse into the nature of mining investment community.

Interview Transcript

Enkhzul Orgodol: Mr Daniel Mahoney is a founding and managing partner of Mahoney Liotta law firm based in Ulaanbaatar. Daniel is a lawyer by training and has almost 20-year experience of providing legal and business advisory to international and national companies and successfully doing business in Mongolia. Dan, welcome to the show.

Daniel Mahoney: Thank you.

Enkhzul Orgodol: In one of your company profiles, it’s stated that many clients may not fully understand the complexities and difficulties unique to the development of Mongolia. Please specify some of these complexities and difficulties you’re talking about in your statement.

Daniel Mahoney: I guess mainly as lawyers we’re talking about the development of the legal system in Mongolia. We opened our firm in 1997, so that was just a few years after the collapse of communism and the establishment of market economy and market-based laws in Mongolia. At the time, all these laws were new, and the infrastructure, the regulators, and the courts and everything was new. That’s I think probably one very unique thing about Mongolia for foreign investors looking in Mongolia.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, but since your establishment, it’s been almost … almost, it’s actually exactly been 20 years. Which do you see in terms of the development? What do you see? Have you seen much progress or do you think there’s still lot of areas that need to be improved?

Daniel Mahoney: There’s areas that need to be improved but there has also been a lot of progress, of course. In 1997 when we first came, there was a property registration office was set up to register ownership of apartments, but that was about it. Now they’ve just established a new system to register other pledges of other types of collateral. The regulators have gained a lot of experience. The securities regulators, the FRC, the banking regulators. Everybody in 20 years of work has gained a lot of experience as have our competitor law firms.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. Could you name some specific areas, which still need to be improved you think?

Daniel Mahoney: I think it’s … I would say probably the tax. Tax is a difficult area where it’s still investors and not only investors, but Mongolian business people have a difficult time due to lack of consistency, and lack of detailed rules, and ad-hoc administration by different tax offices, different officers would apply law in a different way. It’s very difficult for business owners, and investors, business owners, Mongolian as well as foreign to really understand what they’re supposed to do and to follow the rules.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Yeah, in one of our previous interviews we talked to a tax expert, Mr. Onchinsuren. She also said one of the difficulties of the business in Mongolia might be the number of these state organizations that may need more clarity in terms of their roles and better arrangement even among themselves. That’s basically what you’re talking about with regard to tax.

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, with regard to tax and yeah, other organizations as well as training, I think, of staff. You know, at election time, there’s a lot of turnover in departments, and we’ve talked for years about having a more formal civil service in Mongolia, where people don’t change, their jobs aren’t changed because of change of elections, and they develop some expertise in the area within the different departments and authorities. Because now, sometimes they’ll change and people aren’t trained. It’s not always their fault if they actually are trying to apply these laws and regulations, but they haven’t been trained. There is a difficulty many times, faced, yeah.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Of course. Having maybe improperly or inadequately trained civil servants at these public organizations, of course, would be quite time-consuming and troublesome for the business as I understand. Is it correct? Is that where the business is having the most difficulties with regard to the inconsistent civil servants.

Daniel Mahoney: Yes. I think it’s … now speak for example foreign investors, we do a lot of representing foreign investors investing in Mongolia. A lot of the risks in Mongolia could be addressed through contracts, and quite frankly, offshore arbitration, or providing agreements with the partners to address issues but one thing you can’t avoid is dealing with the tax authority and if you have a dispute with the tax authority, it goes to Mongolian court. This is probably the main … you can have a successful business. You can make profits, but sometimes the more profits you make, then the more interest the tax people have. You can’t do business in Mongolia without dealing with the tax authorities.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly. Based on my previous experience, what I understood was, of course, we have the Mongolia law on one hand but if Mongolia is a party to international agreements that are related to that specific area of law, then the international agreements or international … the legislation would prevail the national laws. That’s how I understood. You’re saying that it does not apply to tax-related laws.

Daniel Mahoney: Sure, there’s international agreements on tax as well. There’s many different areas. Yes, under Mongolia law, Mongolia law is clear and actually, the regulators are pretty faithful in applying it in the courts that that international agreement will prevail. Of course, there’s no international agreement about income tax of a company operating in Mongolia. That’s solely a Mongolian law issue, so you’re solely subject to Mongolia law as a business operating in Mongolia.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Then what would be your top let’s say three, four advice to your clients or anyone who is interested in doing business in Mongolia in tackling or sort of, how would I say, at minimizing the risks, such risks you mentioned?

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, I mean, I think probably the advice is similar to other country. The main one, the first one is to have a good Mongolia partner because it’s really difficult as foreign investors. It depends on the size of the project, also. For somebody like Rio Tinto who is a huge multinational, it’s a little bit different than a small investor from United States or from Australia. For the smaller projects, medium size projects it’s really essential to have a reliable Mongolia partner, and it’s difficult to find a good partner.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah, that’s what I’ve been hearing.

Daniel Mahoney: It’s possible. They just have to … I guess the first advice is, yeah, is to be careful, and investigate and do your due diligence on your partner, but find a good partner. There are, of course, there are good partner.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, and what else would be your reply? Find a good partner, also …

Daniel Mahoney: I think the other … not to go back to the tax point is … but the financials is to monitor closely the business here in Mongolia, and to keep track on a constant basis what’s going on. Another problem you see a lot of is to have a good understanding of what you’re doing, so language is a problem, of course, for a foreign investor now we’re talking about They need to have essential documents that they’re asked to sign or submit, file, translate it. They need to have an understanding. Either word for word translation or explain very clearly to them by their staff or by their advisors or something. I think it’s just very important.

We’ve seen as lawyers, we’ve seen many problems over the years where clients come and say, “Well, that’s not what I understood we were doing at the time and now there’s a problem.”

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah, I keep hearing, especially because as you said, Mongolia market economy has been developing just over 20 years for now, so there is still a lot of areas that need to be improved in terms of meeting the internationally accepted standards. Some of these sectors, economic sectors are quite new to Mongolia, especially the services or the special, professional services. That’s why a lot of the legal language that are used in English have not been introduced in Mongolian language maybe until now or until quite recently. How do you tackle with that? I mean, how do you go around that as a law firm?

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, well, I mean, we have, obviously, I’m American, obviously I’m a foreigner but I’m an American so I speak English. Since we were founded, we’ve always had Mongolian partners and a lot of Mongolian lawyers working for us. What we try to do is to understand within the firm, the legal concept that we’re talking about, and then to get it translated into Mongolian either as a word or as a concept. If there’s a defined term or an accepted international standard term, we as lawyer, offshore lawyers, of foreign lawyers, if we understood the term, we would try and explain it, we would discuss. Then our Mongolian lawyers will help us put it in terms that would be understandable in Mongolian.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. You said when you set up your own company, you also partnered the Mongolians. What were your main, how would I say it, the criteria or the kind of requirements that you saw in your own local partners?

Daniel Mahoney: Well, actually, I had met our original partner in Washington DC. We worked together in a law firm in Washington.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see, so you knew-

Daniel Mahoney: I knew him before we came and actually, he invited me to Mongolia. That’s how I arrived here.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Maybe speaking based on your clients or other experts doing business in Mongolia, the kind of quality they seek in their local partners, what did you find the most common?

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, it is in the earlier … the most common is that they met somebody, that the foreign investor met a Mongolian, their Mongolian partner somewhere, often in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Mostly through personal connections.

Daniel Mahoney: Through personal connection for the smaller projects. Of course, the larger projects it’s a little bit different.

Enkhzul Orgodol: They would more look at the professional background, etc..

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, they would. I mean, organizations like BCM or check with, many times people come, potential clients and ask us. They ask us about this is our potential partners. Do you have any comments? Ask around and get references, and check with people that you trust, because you know Mongolia is very small and everybody knows everybody else. Even if not personally or directly, they know of them or they know somebody who knows of them. It’s not that hard.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, exactly. Okay, when I was looking at your websites, the company website that I noticed that you have very wide range of services you’re offering through your firm. Of course, I mean, I think that the number of years you’ve been in the country justifies that long list of services that range from registration and regulatory affairs to export customs and trade, etc.. I want to point out the Goldman relations, which actually you pointed out earlier in the discussion as well in terms the inconsistent maybe in the civil service etc.

Could you share some of the advice that you provide to your clients under the government relation section because some of the viewers of our video, the interview would be ones I don’t think who would have the maybe the necessary , who would necessary have the capacity to have a law firm like yourself as their, the professional helper. Could you share some of the insights that could fall under this category?

Daniel Mahoney: I mean, mainly, I guess, in our website, what that means is that we assist our clients primarily in negotiating contracts with the government party, either the government is a contract party, for example, in some of the larger mining projects where the government is actually a shareholder, or the government is the regulator. We would be discussing and meeting with the regulators on behalf of clients. This is what we mean by government relations. We also help just generally, the business community and lobbying for new laws where new laws are published. Hopefully, they’re published in draft form first, and we have a chance to review the draft and then to make some suggestions. That’s probably what we would cover by government relations.

Enkhzul Orgodol: How has the government been? How responsive has the government been in terms of accepting the kinds of suggestions from business community?

Daniel Mahoney: You know, it changes from government to government. Originally, when we first came and I think generally, to be honest, in the late ’90s, government was very open to suggestions and discussions with foreign investors or with. At the time, there were few foreigners actually living full times. Myself, and I had another American partner, and we had a lot of discussions with the parliament members and the government regulators about questions they had.

Then, as the economy grew and particularly the commodity prices went up and the government became, seemed less interested in getting advice because there was so much, I think they took the view that there was so much value in Mongolia that the investors, that they had the upper hand basically and that investors would, they didn’t need to cater to investors, investors needed to cater to them if they wanted to get a gold mine, or a copper mine, or whatever. Of course, in the last few years, that has kind of backfired. Now, the current government is very open.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. You see some promising results. You’re expecting some promising results from the current government. Could you name some of the positive actions that the current government has taken that has given you this kind of positive outlook?

Daniel Mahoney: Sure. I think just being open to discussions. All the time over the years, of course, all the government leaders will come to invest. They’ve always go to investor conferences and say, “Yes, we’ll listen to you. If you have any problems, come speak to us.” Then when you actually try and go to speak to the sometimes it’s not so easy.

This government has been open and aggressive in its listening comments, and the Prime Minister, the Speaker, other ministers have come regularly to monthly investor meetings and have presented their platform. They listen to issues and they’ve reacted and so far positively. There’s a lot of changes. There are a lot of proposed laws, of course, under consideration. We’ll see what happens, including mining law, labor law, and some other issues. We together with some others in the business community are providing comments on those laws. We’ll see what happens.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly, yeah, fingers crossed. I see. On your client portfolio what I understood, when I was also speaking to some of the not similar, but professional services firms like the investment banking or the tax, they were sort of sharing insights in terms of their client portfolio because they were saying that how their client portfolio looks like at the moment can be reflecting of the current economic sector, which sectors is doing well, which sector is attracting more investors, which sector has more trends etc., is more tending, etc.. Just to understand this kind of big picture, could you share some of the insights from your client portfolio, any dominant country in the portfolio or any dominant sector you see?

Daniel Mahoney: Mining has always been in 20 years was historically the dominant sector, and it was what was bringing in all the investment into Mongolia. Then, when that cash went into the economy, it went into the real estate and into banking. Those were the key sectors. We’ve represented clients from all countries. Probably if you name a country, we’ve worked with them. In the early years, there was a lot of Canadian investment into mining, into exploration. Later became more Australian because that’s where the money was raised on the stock exchange in Australia say five, six years ago.

Recently, in the last three or four years, unfortunately, there’s been minimal little investment in the exploration side of mining so a lot of that business has dried up. In the last few years, it’s been actually a lot of infrastructure work, and now power projects, and renewable power projects. That’s been the focus probably, at least for our business in the last two to three years.

Enkhzul Orgodol: In terms of the mining, is it mostly gold and copper, or any other specific type of mining sector that Mongolians are not very familiar with, but the foreigners are looking to explore in Mongolia.

Daniel Mahoney: Generally, I think mining companies and investors are interested in anything, but of course, coal was really hot for a while and now the market’s fallen off the last three or four years. Coal had a, in early years, there was very little interest in coal, and then there was a three or four years previous when coal prices went way up, and there was a lot of investment and activity in the coal sector. I think throughout, gold is always interest always, and I think always will be. Copper is the same. I think the long-term prospects for copper.

Uranium has always been here and there’s always been Uranium projects, but there’s always national security issues and because of the nature of Uranium, but there’s still a lot of interest in Uranium. Iron ore for a while there was some interest. It’s a little, I guess more difficult commodity because of the bulk to transport out of the country. It’s copper and gold are probably still today and probably for the future.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Besides this kind of, how do I say, what Mongolian government likes to call a strategic sector like the infrastructure, mining, and maybe even transport? They have transport, for example is next. Which kind of areas, maybe some niche areas of economy do you think Mongolia has the potential to develop more. I’m thinking of maybe organic farming or things like that, but just as a foreigner who’s lived in Mongolia for many years, which do you think, which sectors do you think have the more potential in the long run?

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah. I know and I think you probably know too, the government for a long time just talked about IT sector because that’s,I mean, there’s a lot of well trained, smart, young mostly I guess in technologies, young people, and it’s a good potential. The Mongolian situation has always been that the domestic market is kind of small.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah, it is very small.

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah. You can’t, It doesn’t make economic sense to build a car assembly plant here, because the sales is too small and then the distance to other markets where you can sell is too far and too expensive. There’s lot of types of industries that wouldn’t work in Mongolia but IT would work.

Enkhzul Orgodol: You talked a lot about mining. When we talk about mining, most of the time people think mining as a high-risk, high-return type of business. Earlier you mentioned to me it’s not always the case. Could you explain a bit more on that?

Daniel Mahoney: Yes, what we were talking about was exploration, which is very high risk but very high return. This is I think maybe somewhat misunderstood in Mongolia that the exploration phase, which is when you’re just acquiring new ground which has never previously been mined, that there’s big risk. You have to go and spend a lot of money drilling, doing investigations. Say out of 10 companies, only one out of 10 will find anything. The other nine will go bankrupt.

These business are always financed on stock exchange and most in Toronto, in Canada, and then Australia, which are big mining company countries, a lot of experience of financing exploration work. Banks don’t lend to these companies because there’s a good chance that nine out of 10 of them will go bankrupt. There’s investors in Toronto, they are in Canada, and Australia that understand this business very well and they finance all this work.

This was in early years in Mongolia where a lot of the investment into Mongolia was these kinds of companies. If you’re the one out of 10 that find Oyu Tolgoi, then your investment goes 100 times. The investor knows if I invest in 10 and I go bankrupt, the 10th one will go 100 times so overall I make my money back.

These investors are a relatively small pool of investors and they know what’s going on around the world. For example, when in 2006 when the Windfall profits tax came in, this is when the investment from Canada just dried up. They started investing in companies working in Columbia and South America because they know which countries are friendly to investment and they know where, because it’s all high-risk money so they know. They’re very knowledgeable and they know, which countries are better and worth their investment.

Then Mongolia second, they came along with the strategic mine concept, which is basically like we say it’s like going to a casino that if you win the jackpot, then the casino owner comes and says, “Give me one-third for free.” How you’re going to be, put real high-risk money into my project, would I go to Mongolia where I have to give a third to the government or go to a country where I get to keep my jackpot. This is what’s really hurt investment at exploration stage in Mongolia.

Now, we also talk other projects like Oyu Tolgoi where the resource has already been discovered and developed. Once they did discover copper deposits, those continue and they’re still doing it now, drilling and trying to expand it. It’s going to be bigger. They don’t know how big it is but what they do know is that it’s big enough, and they know that how it sits in the ground, and how it’s structure, and the engineering to get it out of the ground, and they know they can make a profit by doing that.

They check all of these things, a company like Rio Tinto and they won’t invest until they eliminate, until they know that they won’t invest the big $10 billion to exploit the mine until they know all of these things. They know that the resource is there. They know how it’s structure, they know the engineering.

The other thing we were talking about is the political risk. They address that issue as well. Before they’re going to put 10 billion, they’re going to make sure that they’re covered by political risk, mainly that the government won’t confiscate their investment, or that the tax regime will stay stable. This was what was behind the stability agreement.

That’s not just for Mongolia. It’s for any developing country, they would want these kinds of assurances before they would invest. But, for them, it’s a, I mean, they’re still going to make good profit but it’s not like exploration company that makes 100 times what it’s invested, it’s more like if you invest 10 billion it will make a 25% return or something. Of course, it’s good profit.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see. Can you elaborate a bit more on the stability agreement you just mentioned? What are the main inclusion out there, and how it’s protecting the investor, and how the government is practicing it in Mongolia?

Daniel Mahoney: Yeah, well, it’s mainly it’s fiscal stability but you know, it’s just taxes so the tax rate. If you invest in the project and tax laws, of course, can always be amended. Any law can be amended. What the government has done in the stability agreement at the time is to guarantee to Rio that the tax rates in effect and the taxes in effect at the time that the agreement was signed will stay stable. There’s some other, I mean, the documents is public record. It’s all over the internet, of course, and there’s stock exchange filings in Canada. It covers other things, labor, licensing, things like this, but it’s basically just to say you’ll have a stable environment going forward. Probably the most important thing is the fiscal and tax stability going forward.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Can this stability agreement be done by other investors as well or is it only for specific projects or where, you know, bringing over a specific number of investment?

Daniel Mahoney: Under the new investment law that was adopted a couple of years ago, I forget, 2014 maybe. Now, there’s two things. Any business can get a tax stability agreement. In the tax stability agreement, any large,I think it’s in certain sectors, really large, what you’re talking about, really multi-billion dollar project, you can get an investment agreement, which is similar to the stability agreement that you talk about which is broader coverage. Any investor can just the tax stability. If forget, there is a minimum investment. I forgot what the amount is, but a relatively small amount.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. It seems like the government has been giving significance to specific sectors like the mining, infrastructure. They’ve been trying to first attract investors through often this kind of incentives like the stability agreement, but at the same time, they’ve been trying to protect such sectors namely the strategic sectors, for example, right? With the current government, what do you think? They have to work as priority to fix the situation, to keep the right balance in terms of making Mongolia look like they are being very protective on the one hand, but on the other hand, they’ve been trying to be very open or very welcoming.

Daniel Mahoney: Well, there’s the strategic sectors I guess are mining, media, and finance, but most countries do have national security interests in the strategic sector. It’s not unusual for Mongolia to have that. I wouldn’t say that they’re giving advantages, or benefits, or special treatment to investors. Just, all investors want a stable environment and the fact of the matter is, United States is more stable than Mongolia. If you invested in the United States, you don’t expect or you don’t necessarily want or need a stability agreement because you know that the law, the legal environment will stay relatively stable. Sure, Congress can change tax rates and they do from time to time, but nothing like what the risk that they foresee in Mongolia. That’s why they needed the stability agreement to invest in a country like Mongolia.

For the government going forward as we talked before, investors need to see results because of what happened in the last three or four years with all the negative experiences of investors. Also, the government now has been going out and been telling everybody that those mistakes were in the past, lessons have been learned. Going forward we’re definitely committed to investment, we’re committed to rule of law, we’re committed to fairness. They just have to prove it now over time.

There’s huge potential in this country and there’s been unfortunately some missteps and over the last five, six years and mainly because of Mongolia was maybe too successful too quickly at the time as far as drawing investment in and things were going maybe too fast.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Since a 17% increase in GDP etc

Daniel Mahoney: All of it, yeah, just huge inflow of money into the country. Things were going really maybe too fast for the population, society to manage, to understand. When it’s 17% compounding year-on-year and there’s so many changes in Ulaanbaatar. You know, you’ve lived here, just physically, just explosion in building but also I think in society is really coming from Communist era and then slowly into market economy. Then all of a sudden sort of just thrown totally in such a rapid rate that it’s tough to adjust, and then maybe some mistakes made in adjusting to it.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah, and we really hope to see the current government learning from the mistakes and doing what’s right in the future.

Daniel Mahoney: Not only government but the whole country, and society, and everybody understanding, maybe having better understanding of for example it’s not going to go up forever 17%. It’s going to maybe come down sometimes and to manage if for the long run, not the short run. More exposure, experience, education. More of just general concepts of a market economy.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah, exactly. I think I should highlight something here as well, because what you said about finding qualified and reliable workforce is one of the top challenges in Mongolia. I think that really should make the general public and the professionals, aspiring professionals to reflect on themselves, and trying to, how would I say, build up more soft skills like trust building etc., it seems like.

Daniel Mahoney: Sure.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Okay, thank you very much for your insightful discussion, and all the best in your work. Thank you.

Daniel Mahoney: Thank you.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Thank you.


Interview – Elisabeth Koppa

Elisabeth Koppa is the owner of Valiant group of companies that amongst other things are business that exhibits and auctions art as well as doing interior design projects.

The interview  with Elisabeth Koppa trawls the value-add of art world and where Mongolia stands with regards to brand education. She posits that, while things are getting better, there is a need for Mongolia to develop better practices with regards to contract fulfilment and adherence to the Rule of Law.

Interview Transcript

Enkhzul Orgodol: Mrs. Elisabeth Koppa is a serial entrepreneur. She has started and run various businesses while she was in Europe. Since she moved to Mongolia in early 2000 with her husband, she began collecting Mongolian artworks, mostly paintings, which was later developed into her latest venture Valiant Art and Interiors Space.

Mrs. Koppa, welcome. You have multiple functions under your company, an art auctioneer, official distributor of a number of mainly European home and office furniture and interior decoration producers, interior design service provider and so on and so forth. Could you briefly explain how your business is organized, how many employees you have and which kind of departments do they belong to?

Elisabeth Koppa: My company is divided for two, actually three, main departments.

One is Valiant Commercial which has goods for constructions, for hotels, for restaurants, for bigger projects and that is like carpet tiles, raised floor, Marisol foil which is good for ceilings or walls decoration. Many other elements, which are necessary. We have everything what the client may have it, lights, industrial lights, that is in the Valiant Commercial.

Then we have the Valiant Interiors, which is dedicated for private users, also hotels, also other smaller businesses. We have now just recently started with new interior designs for shops like boutiques, jewelry shop, watch shop, shoe shops. We have now make contract with very famous company in Poland. As you know, I am born in Poland and some connections still there and the company, which is specialized for this kind of work, make fantastic work all over the world included France, England, America, so that is our new baby.

And then, the last one is for the private home. We do full projects, we take care of whole apartments and making the renderings, making the concepts, the ideas, the coloristic. We have everything what is necessary, carpets, furnitures, lights, decorations, and as the last decoration is art, also art.

Art is a separate business, let’s say in my business, and we just started to make auctions. We are making auctions once a month. Two times we do normal auction and every third time fine art auction, which are more expensive paintings, famous artists and hopefully, that will be developed. Also included, get things from people to sell, specifically antiques or also paintings or other things which are connected with art.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. Art auction sounds very new and unique to Mongolia and based on your background, I found out you’ve actually initiated lots of new projects in Mongolia with regard to introducing art and arts related businesses and services. How has your art related business been like, the auction as well as the introduction and export of artworks of Mongolian artists.

Elisabeth Koppa: I started with art as a first element of my business and that was 2005, and we had the first ever private gallery in Mongolia which was in Ulaanbataar Then in one year time we had five galleries around the cities including gers which was close to the circus and, which we provided concerts, for example, short concerts for tourist with Mongolian art like singing and performance art with art also. And then, I did also start at that time, I traveled around the world with Mongolian art exhibitions. I did 74 international exhibitions for last year, which is huge amount of money but also very, very energy consuming process.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I can imagine-

Elisabeth Koppa: Because of the cost of everything, most of the work I done myself but I also needed to hire people in places, which is costly. Unfortunately, that had been finished very bad for me because I got problem with my spine and I got neuropathy. My nerves has been squeezed between my vertebrae and I couldn’t make that anymore and I don’t do that anymore. But, not only this reason why I stopped to work with this art around the world, because Mongolian artists didn’t understand the whole effort, the money behind it and the needed honesty with co-orporation, unfortunately. Here, in this country, artists used to come, offer and sell. It’s not like other galleries around the world that they take a painting to gallery for period of months, two, three, and if the artist sold they’re sharing the-

Enkhzul Orgodol: Profits?

Elisabeth Koppa: Not profits but the cost of the painting. The sale price they are sharing depends, of course, where is the gallery located and what kind of money is the gallery spending for promotion of the artist, invitations, cocktail parties to invite guests. These things are not known, or didn’t few years ago and problem was that is very difficult to explain to the artist that that is necessary to continue. As I said that already before, I will also explain that I can make you to very famous artist, depends how much money I will put in that project, because a repeating exhibitions with your art and make sure that your art and your name will be known and repeated very often, make you famous.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly.

Elisabeth Koppa: Why, for example, Anthony Hopkins is now artist, everybody know his name. He’s artist, he’s actor but now he start painting and his paintings are very expensive because the name is famous, and he’s not educated artist at all and he’s painting. He’s also questioning if I like them or not. I think that I will paint better, by the way.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah.

Elisabeth Koppa: This is a question how much money you put to the artist to make the artist famous.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly. I understand that there’s two same products with different names. For example, if the product A is not very famous brand, then it’s known to people. It’s different price, it’s different quality, different appreciation but if brand B’s, for example, more known it’s better price, it’s better appreciated et cetera. What makes brand B more valuable? Is the marketing and the brand development, the brand manager like yourself, is doing?

Elisabeth Koppa: Marketing money, the advertising, the promotion, all kind of things connecting with marketing.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly.

Elisabeth Koppa: Therefore, you pay. Why you pay for Chanel that big money when other company maybe even make better?

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exactly.

Elisabeth Koppa: Unfortunately, these educations is necessary in this country. We have Narantuul. In Narantuul you can buy everything. You can buy carpets, you can buy lights, you can buy shoes but look at the shoes, how they are done. The elements to make good quality cost money. Ironically, the situation now is that in China, there are companies which are starting to make very good quality, but the quality is exactly the same money as in Europe. Chinese clients are going now to Europe to buy goods, because why they should buy something from Chinese company when they can buy for the same price from the original producer who has, maybe, experience of hundred or two hundred years?

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right.

Elisabeth Koppa: For example, Quadrifoglio Furnitures, which I am representing in Mongolia, selling very much to Chinese clients, because the furnitures are down in Italy made of very good quality and the price are almost the same.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right, I see. Speaking of educating the customers as well as the artist, I heard you have written articles to educate the Mongolian artist and the Mongolian public in terms of appreciating the art and artworks better. Are you still writing and-

Elisabeth Koppa: I do. I had contract with Home magazine, and there I was writing about all kind of work I do and that was basically dedicated to educate Mongolian population about interior design, because interior design eight years ago, seven years ago was very unknown world and nobody really understand what that mean and how that works. Now’s much better. It’s more companies which are doing the concepts, the renderings because it’s very difficult to put things together it you don’t have really eye and education.

I was writing articles every month about different element of interior design, starting with what is the design, how the design is connected with culture. Then it’s like, what is the importance of light? What is all kind of covering like wallpaper or carpets or all these kind of things and they coloristic, how you put things together, all kind of design. Why to not make things too busy, because people feel just too stressed when they in an apartment and we’d like to relax after work. So, many things I put it in the articles, which was educating, I hope I heard that from my clients and then readers who bought this magazine, that that was very helpful. Some of them collected these magazines –

Enkhzul Orgodol: Oh, that’s great to hear. So, the Home magazine, it’s Mongolian?

Elisabeth Koppa: It’s Mongolian magazine which is mostly dedicated to the advertising of different companies, but in this magazine I was writing articles 12 months about different aspect and elements of interior design.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I see, so whoever is interested in finding more about your advice should access this Home magazine. Besides educating the Mongolian market, you have done tremendous amount of work in terms of promoting and making Mongolian artists and Mongolian artwork known to the world. You mentioned that you’ve organized almost eighty-

Elisabeth Koppa: Seventy-four, yeah.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Exhibitions throughout the world and Europe and the U.S. Earlier you were telling me that these kinds of efforts of yourself have not been appreciated as much as it should have. What do you think of the future? You said, for example, eight, seven years ago, people did not know much about the interior design but now they’re learning and more and more, they’re getting more better customers. Are you hoping that artists or even the merging the art collectors in Mongolia have the bigger potential of appreciating and maybe bringing some of the artworks…

Elisabeth Koppa: This is very difficult question to answer, because question is number one. Who will be financing that? That was a dinner organized not long time ago by, I think, Ministry of Foreign Affair, or at least that was signature by people from there looking for sponsors to make a Venetian exhibition.

I sent Mongolian artists there and they requested to 300,000 Euro they needed for that. I will ask myself, why it’s 300,000. It doesn’t cost 300,000 Euro, but the cost is huge. You need to transport the paintings, you need to transport the people; the hotels, the advertising, the catalogs. You need probably make new stretches because going with huge paintings abroad is cost very much, so it’s maybe easier to roll and them and then make stretches on the place, which I did many, many times.

I have, in America, storage that I have probably 500 stretches now because moving from one place to another. This is very costly work and, unfortunately, Mongolian artists, they do not appreciate art. They sold paintings behind my back-

Enkhzul Orgodol: So sorry to hear that.

Elisabeth Koppa: They didn’t accept the fact that we had agreement, exclusivity agreement that I am the one only who can sell and can work. They didn’t understand the whole concept of promoting artists. If you are artist in Hollywood or everywhere in the international market, you have your agent and the agent is actually dictating everything; how you will be named, your nickname or other name, how you will be dressed, to whom you will speak, to what you will need to say. This is whole promotion of you as an artist. It’s not like you can say whatever you want, but in Mongolia this concept was not accepted.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Right. We were saying earlier on about the matter of time. What you’re saying, the kind of problems or the challenges facing Mongolia. I’ve heard that they have been faced in other emerging markets as well, and I’m hoping that the situation will get better over time. However, let’s try to look at the potential.

Besides the visual arts like the paintings or the sculptures, do you think Mongolia has the potential of exporting other types of its art? I actually heard, for example, Mongolian ger, the traditional housing, is much more popular in Europe than in Mongolia because there are lots of countries like Germany, France and Switzerland importing Mongolian ger for its ease of setting up and also the sustainability aspect. Do you see other potentials of –

Elisabeth Koppa: Yeah. I can tell you that, most probably, 2008 I have exhibition in Chicago in Four Seasons Hotel and I took with me Mongolian little ger and Yo-Yo Ma, the very famous violinist, he was the one who was the name of that event. That was Silk Road event, like promoting the countries of the Silk Road, and we had pictures with the little ger and everybody was very happy to see that.

That was 10 years ago almost, 9 years ago and I can imagine, the world is looking for more organic and more relaxed life. People are going for yoga, meditation. Mongolian ger is very healthy and I know families who are very rich who be living in huge villas, but they have in the garden Mongolian ger or some other type of ger to relax during the summertime or evening time or children are playing in it.

Also, ger is very easy to put immediately very quickly if you have earthquake or some disaster happens, it’s very easy to make it. I think that is potential of Mongolian ger. Of course, the question is of the quality and the prices as the business decide. The Mongolian cashmere, everybody talking about but I think that-

Enkhzul Orgodol: I think you are wearing some of them aren’t you?

Elisabeth Koppa: I wear. I have a friend who was trying to get, now, samples for cashmere down in Mongolia and she already make appointments with the clients and with special designers and make lot of effort and put lot of money, but the company didn’t deliver it. They didn’t deliver it in time. Even they promised that

Enkhzul Orgodol: Contracted the Mongolian company?

Elisabeth Koppa: Yes, yes. –

Enkhzul Orgodol: Because they saw the potential. However, in terms of the delivery, oh-

Elisabeth Koppa: Exactly. These people had been very disturbed by the fact because they spent a lot of money to promote the Mongolian cashmere and get the –

Enkhzul Orgodol: Where was the company from?

Elisabeth Koppa: I am not authorized to discuss that.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Which country was it from? Is it okay to say-

Elisabeth Koppa: America, that was American. Yeah. American friends who are living in Mongolian and try to get it and the day when they were supposed to get the samples, they was denied and they was promised that they was promised that they will be sent when they are there and they didn’t come. So, all the meetings, all the effort the people did, all the money they spent already for nothing. This is totally lack of sincerity, lack of business manners, lack of profession.

Enkhzul Orgodol: I will just share with my viewers. Before we started, Mrs. Koppa was very concerned about her speaking about the business environment in Mongolia because she has experienced some negative experiences and transactions in terms of doing business in Mongolia.

The purpose of this project is to really expose the good, the bad and the ugly truth about Mongolian business environment. Of course, there are a lot of people who see Mongolia having lots of potential in terms of its landmass, proximity to other bigger markets like China, Vietnam, Japan and Korea but at the same time, there are a lot of people who are complaining about how hard it is to work with Mongolians because Mongolians have been nomad for centuries. They’re only learning to be professional or to work in more civilized or more organized way since 1990’s. Before that, it’s a different story. That’s why we’re trying to expose the truth or the kind of the expectations for foreign investors, or even Mongolians living abroad.

That’s why I wanted to ask you, you have worked in Mongolia for more than a decade now. There have been good times, I hope, especially during the mining boom and there have been bad times as well. What is your recipe for getting the most out of your Mongolian employees as an employer?

Elisabeth Koppa: You told me that you would like to be positive and looking in the future in time? Yes, I understand and I said because you are young, you are Mongolian, you are full of energy. I have been in Mongolia 10, 12 years. These are my last 12 years in my life now, I am over 70 now, and the situation is that I don’t have much time to look forward. I would like to have the business giving me the satisfaction and giving me-

Enkhzul Orgodol: Stability-

Elisabeth Koppa: The stability now, and the biggest problem is that they are missing from the government part positive attitude towards foreigners and positive attitudes towards foreign investor. If the normal people who are not educated, who are nomads, who didn’t have much experience to see beautiful things around the world don’t know and don’t hear from the government that this is positive element in our economy, that we doubt foreign investors, we can’t do very much because Mongolia have too little people and the production, what you have of animals and little bit of the cashmere, are not things which can get the economy to such a high level like it was 5 years ago.

Please, don’t forget that Mongolia five years ago was on the top of the international economy, 17 and half percent of GDP. Where we are today? Almost zero. The situation is, if you’re looking at the foreigners who are coming to Mongolia, they are not the pest. They are bringing the knowledge, they are bringing the need for new schools, new restaurants, new hairdressers, new whatever and that is what make the economy booming. Everybody have possibility to make some money because there are requests. Why we decline now so much during the four years? There’s no request. Nobody renting the apartments, no need for furnitures, nobody really travel with the taxis. If you have 300 people coming from abroad, you have 300 taxis busy and, at least few days, yes? And they’re going to restaurants, they going to the theatre, they going to shop and buying things. That is the model of the economy, so my recipe? Let the foreigners come, make the investor-

Enkhzul Orgodol: Do their jobs?

Elisabeth Koppa: No. The investor needs to feel that there’s stability in the country, that they are welcome. I understand there is always some black element in every kind of population, and I am sure there are investor which are not correct and which want to cheat, but I would like to look at this. Also, Mongolians we are cheating like 8 billion togrogs, get it from government to make rubbish recycling.

Where the money gone? How much did rubbish recycling really cost? If that will be very interesting to make, checking. How the money get to these people? Who get the money and why? What is the reason? That is what are looking here, we foreigners, looking at the corruption that, ‘My brother is in the government so I will get the projects.’ All these corruptions are going over and over.

But, look at the people who live in gers. This is disaster. So much money is spent for different things which are not really controlled, and then look at the people, how they need to go every day to pick up water, or not light or cold at nights. Now, government make the gesture that during the night the electricity’s either for free or very little cost, so that can be make the pollution less.

But, there’s so many things the government should do for the people here in the country. I am not Mongolian, but I help many people. I send the children to operations in Korea, I put my money, I collected money to make that. In my gallery, for example, the auctions. Ten percent of our proceeds are going to the orphans house which we are donating every time we selling anything in the gallery, and I am foreigner. What’s happened in here in Mongolia with the people who has money, and the car, the watch, the apartment they want to have. Of course, I understand everybody wants to have, but this is not really correct and fairness in Mongolian population.

Now, the situation in Mongolia is little bit better because of the competition in restaurants and other places, but there’s still lot of things people needs to learn to make the service. It’s difficult, I know. Mongolia have lot of history with nomad life, which is simple, not need too much and maybe even not expecting much, but-

Enkhzul Orgodol: Independent.

Elisabeth Koppa: Exactly, but if you want to get back to the glory, which was five years ago, you need to get investment. You need to get the people, and the people needs understand in Mongolia that foreigners are not the pest. Foreigners are those which bringing the, as I said, knowledge that the possibility of making the business. So, first is the stability for the investment. Second, is the law.

The law in Mongolia is corrupted terribly. I lost two cases because my lawyers has been set by the judge to come with documents one day later, and because of that I lost two cases. I have now third case in the court where the guy who sue me told me that he has colleagues in Parliament, he has colleagues in government and he knows many judges, so how to fight that? I would like just to address that, that this needs to be corrected. I even spoke with minister Tsagaan some time ago about it and he said to me, ‘You know Elisabeth? This is new democracy, we learn new things. That take time.’ But, how many people on the way will lose the patience and lose the money, lose the will to do something better?

Enkhzul Orgodol: We want to set the right expectations for whoever is looking at Mongolia as a potential. I think it’s very helpful that you support entrepreneurs and investors who are looking at Mongolia to have balanced view about the business environment in Mongolia.

Of course, there are lots of potentials that, as you said, different kinds of, for example, your sector different kinds of arts and culture, products for export, et cetera. But, there are lots of internal politics that are corrupt and that are holding the involvement of the country back. I guess for investors and entrepreneurs who are really looking at Mongolia and trying to leverage it can also try to see some positive side from that. For example there can be an investment coming into education sector in educating the really high skill professionals, as you mentioned, et cetera.

Elisabeth Koppa: Yes.

Enkhzul Orgodol: So, I think it would be good that you have this balance to the viewers, so I’m very thankful for your honest feedback and on this interview.

Elisabeth Koppa: I always say positive things about country, and the people out of Ulaanbaatar, because in Ulaanbaatar, for me, that is like colliding with sharks and, unfortunately, I have evidence for that, that these things are not happening correctly with the big money from the government, people giving to the families and make all the projects for huge money, which could go to much better projects to helping the normal people.

But things can happen. More and more good things happen. If you look at Shangrila, we have fantastic back area, which I just adore. Every day, you’re buying fresh bread, so new things coming up. If you look at my shop, there’s also things which you don’t see in other shops. I am trying to bring things which are new, which are modern, which are fashion with the international community. I think that there’s not only negative things, there are also positive things. I would like just the positive would be little more than the negative.

Enkhzul Orgodol: Yeah. So, Mrs Koppa, thank you very much for your insight, and very honest discussion. I’m sure our viewers will get lots of useful and helpful information from it.

Thank you.

Elisabeth Koppa: Thank you so much, thank you.